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Last night when I watched Countdown with Keith Olbermann, the number 5 segment left me with a sick and empty feeling about self-fulfilling prophecies.

The right wing has claimed liberal bias for so long, they are going to build their own poster child out of it today and tonight. Watch Olbermann's mashup of all the Foxnuts promoting their little outragefest;

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/...

(can someone tell me why the HTML code from the MSNBC embed that we are supposed to cut-and-paste always generates an HTML error here on Kos when I try to publish the diary?)

The lunatic fringe are beating their chests and setting up the Reichstag fire for tomorrow and launch the next stage to inspire Kristalnacht thereafter.

My theories below:

UPDATE: I forgot what it was that I saw at Rightpundits.com last night that inspired this: How many of you have seen the Rick Perry story about his non-binding resolution that declares TX state sovereignty against the federal government? Here - I'll let RPundits speak for themselves

Texas Governor Rick Perry has joined state legislators in support of a non-binding resolution asserting the 10th amendment rights of the state of Texas. Governor Perry says he believes that the federal government has become "oppressive".

Sorry about that. I was trying to get this out in a hurry because If I put it up after all the shit hit the fan, I'm reporting news, not forecasting..

2nd update: 3:08 PM EDT: I also forgot that the Rick Perry piece led me to "Oath Keepers". And before you start reminding me (like I didn't get it when the first 30 people pointed it out) that Kristalnaght was government sponsored) my point is that all Fox/Limbaugh need to do is start a little violence and hope it escalates even the slightest.

if the police get called out, or nevermind anything larger - Obama will be blamed any way it goes. If it gets out of hand, Obama is asleep at the wheel and incompetent; if the police or troops look at all heavy-handed then it will be proof positive to the lunatics that a police state is at hand and then who knows what happens.

Think about this: Fox declares that "Thousands" will turn out today for Tea Party protests all around the nation. ("Sean Hannity has personally paid inspired 8000 to show up in his presence! News at 11!")

Fuck me - here in Hazleton, Alan Keyes is supposed to be on the steps of our courthouse tonight at 5:30 with his teabag friends.

Alan Keyes? He's been here four times in the last 18 months. In Pennsylvania?

Got it? Fox news/Clear Channel say there's madness in the streets!

Madness! I tells ya.

And the dastardly "left wing" "mainstream" "PRAVDA" doesn't show protests for 24 hours straight, in the same degree of fanaticism that Fox/CC does.

What does that prove?

Does it prove that Rupert threw a red herring and the dogs never went after it?

NO! IT MEANS THE LEFT WING IS CONTROLLED BY DER FUHRER, (AND FUNNELED THROUGH JON PODESTA, JUST LIKE RUSH LIMBAUGH SAID) AND THAT PRAVDA HAS OFFICIALLY BEEN ESTABLISHED IN THE FORMER DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF AMERICA.

I'm just spitballing, here, but given what I saw last night on "Reich Pundits" (rightpundits.com), unless MSNBC, NPR, USA Today and all networks but Fox carry on with the same blathering madness that the RWNEws does over whatever happens today, the Murdoch footsoldiers will declare that the martial law has been proven - proven, I tells ya - in America.

Fox says there will be protests, the MSM won't carry as much coverage as Fox, therefore Fox will declare the lack of coverage the sign that Obama's government has control of the media, and it's time to launch the revolution.

This is the kind of rhetoric that inspired Kristallnacht.

I've got a really sick, sad, empty feeling in my stomach.

Of all the times I hate to be proven wrong, today is that day I'm really ready, willing, and enthusiastic to come back and read the comments to find nothing but raspberries and ridicule that I was completely off base and the whole thing was a bust.

But it just feels wrong.

Originally posted to snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 10:49 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar. I'll take this down if you say it's over (26+ / 0-)

    the top, but I think I make a few reasonable points, and I want mostly to get your feedback.

    Alan Keyes is going to be in my hometown tonight - that can't be good.

    It's cold, wet, and raining here, and this whole thing just feels wrong.

    George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

    by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 10:50:33 AM PDT

    •  Mr. Greycat was saying the same thing (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gareth, snakelass, luvmovies2000, snafubar

      last night when I suggested going to take a look at the teabaggers. It does seem that the wingnut leaders are trying to incite the crazies to violence. I could see this spinning out of control if violence were to lead to some sort of police crackdown. We are a long way from that at this point though.

      •  How many crazies really need to be incited (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        k9disc, greycat

        don't they come already wound up by themselves?

        Who ever heard of Tim McVeigh before April 19, 1995.

        What's today's date again?

        Oh, nevermind.

        Columbine - April 20th
        Oklahoma City - April 19th
        and Tax Day...

        ...are all roughly about "now" - oops.

        George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

        by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:44:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  From early reports, these hoedowns (10+ / 0-)

    are coming off like fish fries for PETA.  I think Krystallnacht may be a bit farther off than you fear.

    grumble grumble mutter mutter

    by Crashing Vor on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 10:53:29 AM PDT

  •  you're thinking of the Munish beer hall putsch (21+ / 0-)

    Kristallnacht took place with government sponsorship. What you are thinking about was Hitler's abortive attempt at a coup in Munich in 1923 which was laughably small, easily supressed and landed Hitler in prison where he wrote Mein Kampf.

    Law is a light which in different countries attracts to it different species of blind insects. Nietzsche

    by Marcion on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 10:54:46 AM PDT

    •  And we all know that was the end of that. (9+ / 0-)

      Whew!

      How we know Daffy Duck is Republican: "It's mine, understand? Mine, all mine! Get back down there! Down down down! Go go go! Mine mine mine! Mwahahaha!" --BiPM

      by rhetoricus on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:04:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I didn't mean for it to be a direct analogy. (6+ / 0-)

      Republicans want the revolution, as a self-fulfilling prophecy, because when any government - local, state, or federal amasses to stop even the smallest protest, that's when they will insist that martial law is already here, and then the unstoppable madness will start.

      I knew someone was going to bring this up, but I want to make a distinction that these are not direct parallels.

      - as of now - If Republicans cry out that there's martial law, they'r kooks in most people's eyes  

      but if a few protests today or tonight draw more police presence than some media hothead says is warranted, that will be the rallying cry to start breaking glass.

      Kristallnacht took place with government sponsorship.

      This bullshit is being sponsored by Fox and Limbaugh.

      A riot is a riot is a riot, if you're injured, killed, or lose everything in it. By then, who or what started it is immaterial.

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:04:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  it might not be all bad (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        unclejohn

        If it takes a demonstration from the Right to bring attention to American police state tactics against demonstrators, so be it. Americans have a blind spot for anything that happens to lefties, in fact most enjoy seeing cops beat hippies, but if the cops beat up a few good ole boys, they won't be able to deny the problem.

        Law is a light which in different countries attracts to it different species of blind insects. Nietzsche

        by Marcion on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:20:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The problem with left wing protestors is that (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Samulayo, snafubar, Michellebird

          Its become a professional protest movement, and people get sick of it.  Every imagined injust has a group of people, at least 35% carrying signs for causes other than the one being protested (WTO, Leonard Peltier, Gay Rights, and Free Mumia are regular features regardless of whether those issues are the subject and not meaning to demean any purpose to those movements).  Then you have idiocy like that protestor trying to take down the Olympic torch.  And people have lost all sympathy with the left wing professional and perpetual protest movement.

          "Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center." - Kurt Vonnegut

          by Mister Gloom on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:26:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  no argument there. which is why when the (5+ / 0-)

            RW protests starts, I'm afraid there will be a collective yawn at first, and that will inspire some bored clown to say "Hey, yall, watch this..." and then the funs over, because the police will come out, inspiring cries of fascist police state, and we write the eptitath from there.

            I'm only asking us to look at how primed this country is right now for a wicked shitstorm, it won't take much.

            I really think the RW wants the violence, they just need to structure it in a way that suits their purpose and makes it look like the REACTION to the small violence is the real CAUSE for the escalation in violence and then it feeds itself from there.

            George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

            by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:37:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  a story from before President Obama was elected (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              snafubar, allep10

              I really think the RW wants the violence, they just need to structure it in a way that suits their purpose and makes it look like the REACTION to the small violence is the real CAUSE for the escalation in violence and then it feeds itself from there.

              Remember the huge immigration rights protests from -- I think it was 2006?

              I live in Tucson. We had a march followed by a gathering at a park downtown. About 15k people (including many families, children, elders etc) showed up. The march went ok.

              But we have some anti-immigrant wingnuts here in town. One of them in particular acts like some sort of paid operative seeking to incite violence (I don't know if he is really an operative or just a sociopath who likes making dramas; I do know he's acting).

              So anyway, the wingnuts set up a small (like several people) counter protest imn the park. The police did not get them to leave. The  wingnuts waited and waited until the marchers got to the park and they could get people's attention. They had a bullhorn. For something like two hours, the one who acts like an oterative harangued the crowd. Also, they burned a Mexican flag.

              The police surrounded the wingnuts, facing outward. A group of participants from the march, myself and my gf included, ringed the police circle (between the police and the crowd) because we were asked to do so by the march organizers.

              The dynamic was that the wingnuts were trying to incite the crowd to do something "violent" to them. It was really really hard to watch the people, especially the young people, reacting with their faces to the horrible stuff that this guy was sayingthrough his bullhorn.

              Finally, following the burning of the Mexican flag, someone threw a bottle of water into the circle.

              Then guess what -- the police went full-on after the march participants carring huge scary looking crowd control weapons, went across the park through the crowd like this, ended up arresting something like six people and roughing some of them up.

        •  If the cops beat up a few good ole' boys, the (0+ / 0-)

          response from the Right won't be like our response was - they won't be blogging about rights, they'll be out lobbing molotov cocktails.

          How many democrats have .50 Cals?

          That's why we're the bloggers, they're the hunters.

          I mean some sterotypes are unfounded, but do you really think if violence erupts somewhere, the Right will demand a congressional hearing, or will Ted Nugent take off in his truck and his machine gun and say, "I got this...cover me..."

          George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

          by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:33:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I doubt it (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            snakelass

            What are they, suicidal? They might pose for a few nice pictures with their pickup, their gun and the Confederate flag, but what are they realistically going to do, try to outgun the government? They aren't that stupid.

            Law is a light which in different countries attracts to it different species of blind insects. Nietzsche

            by Marcion on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:35:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  They've done it (0+ / 0-)

              before--at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

              The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

              by dfarrah on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 12:03:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  they were cornered there (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Samulayo, happymisanthropy

                First of, I don't think it's proper to think of the Koresh cult as a right wing militia movement. Second, in both of those cases, the government came to them and sparked the standoff, not the other way around.

                Law is a light which in different countries attracts to it different species of blind insects. Nietzsche

                by Marcion on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 12:21:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  "The government sparked the standoff"...oh no (0+ / 0-)

                  For a minute there I thought maybe my bookmarks had gotten swapped and I had logged on to RedState or Freep by mistake.

                  So let's say I start buying fireworks from out of state and stapling them to the side of my house. My neighbors might notice this and think it could become dangerous if one were to catch on fire; it could start a conflagration that would consume not only my house (which they don't care about) but that fire could spread to other houses (which the civil authorities have a right to protect)

                  Now...there I sit, on my rooftop smoking a cigar, and I see the police come down the street escorting a fire engine, and I decide that they might be coming to do something to me besides protecting my neighbors.

                  Does that mean that the police and the fire department "sparked" the standoff?

                  It's always fun to judge things from miles away when the one doing the judging never had any risk of finding out what the ultimate consequences would be if we just ignored it all.

                  No matter what country you live in, the judgement of "well, we know what happened, therefore we know what never would have happened" is a theoretical game that really scares me.

                  If Koresh had instead been left alone, and then during the Bush Administration had taken all the weapons amassed in his compound and done anything at all with it, do you really think the public reaction would have been "well, no matter what, the government had no right to intervene in the private affairs of either a citizen or a "church""

                  It's fascinating as an intellectual excercise to discuss things knowing how it ultimately turned out; but to just declare outright that "the government came to them and not the other way around" when there will never be the chance to find out what would have happened if it had been left alone to play itself out is a bit frustrating.

                  At this point, we can say that cops should not be allowed to respond to a hostage situation - after all, it may be true that the hostage takers may release their captives if no one were to threaten them, and then it would have been the cops fault for provoking them if they respond -

                  - or did I miss something?

                  George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

                  by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 09:51:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  You assume it's suicide. A man possessed (0+ / 0-)

              with a wicked dream - especially one who thinks he's defending his country - won't see it that way.,

              I just got back from watching Alan Keyes here in Hazleton, PA - and he's not talking about patriotism in terms of simply waving flags.

              He ended the rally by saying "Most people don't realize that the last sentence of the National Anthem is a question' 'Oh, say does that Star SPangled banner yet wave, o'er the land of the free and the home of the brave'"

              It was a call to action, to rise up against a socialist usurper who will sacrifice the great land that your father's and grandfathers fought and died for, because the communists are here borrowing your money to bankrupt the country.

              He wasn't whisling Dixie.

              George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

              by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 04:58:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I think you're off base (11+ / 0-)

    but the crazy's so thick right now that I'm not surprised you expect the worst.  Personally I have no reason to get concerned.  Even if they declare it's time for a revolution, what exactly are the wingers going to do?  They can't even pull a good BBQ together.

    "Republicans, I think you are confusing tyranny with losing." - John Stewart

    by stunzeed on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 10:56:53 AM PDT

  •  That's exactly what they're TRYING to do. (7+ / 0-)

    It just hasn't worked yet.  

    I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper. - President Barack Obama

    by ThirstyGator on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 10:58:49 AM PDT

  •  Relax, snafubar (13+ / 0-)

    I'm in PA too & it's rainy & cold & I doubt there are many (at least where I live) who even care about all this.  What it seems to be attracting is the same 25% of morans who still think GWB was the greatest presnit evah!

    GOP: Turning the U.S. into a banana republic since 1980

    by Youffraita on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 10:58:54 AM PDT

  •  they're harmless (11+ / 0-)

    there's too few of them, and other then people on the internets who think the other side is far bigger and more dangerous then they actually are, no one really cares.

    everyone in my office is laughing at them today. my REPUBLICAN dominated office.

    (0.12, -3.33) ONE America! Yes! We really are ONE America!

    by terrypinder on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 10:59:51 AM PDT

  •  You're onto something (12+ / 0-)

    The tea bagging parties are the early stages of forming a mob.  "Taxation" is the ostensible surface reason for these groups, but really it's just a way for a mob to vent its incoherent anger over the government and anything librul, which they've been programmed to hate over the years. And a way to start bonding, both emotionally and organizationally.  And a way for the more crazy members to get egged on and supported to do something more dangerous.

    Kristallnacht may not be the right analogy, but these parties, which deliberately try to continue and build the momentum generated by the McCain/Palin gatherings should scare anybody.

    •  This guy is inclined to agree (5+ / 0-)

      It's an on-line book that came up in another thread. It's apparently about what makes them tick psychologically (haven't read all of it by any means, but I definitely intend to). In a final postscript on the 2008 election he talks about the growing ugliness and anger that began to emerge at the Palin rallies and that they aren't going to go away, they are just waiting for some leadership to tell them what to do. The violent rhetoric that the Fox "personalities" are playing with may be just the thing.

      "People who have what they want are fond of telling people who haven't what they want that they really don't want it." Ogden Nash (on universal health care?)

      by Catte Nappe on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:41:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  exactly (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alyosha, Catte Nappe

      but these parties, which deliberately try to continue and build the momentum generated by the McCain/Palin gatherings should scare anybody.

      Didn't see this when I posted my comment below about the Palin rallies.

      That energy didn't just disappear when president Obama was elected ....

  •  Seriously though... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    triciawyse, romwriter

    People too lazy to go out and protest are not apt to get all revolutionary, nor do they have the numbers for any sort of Kristallnacht.

    •  I agree.. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe, Clio2

      ... While I think it's not out of the question totally, things here aren't that bad off. Most people still have jobs and homes and family stuff going on and are relatively happy with life at home. They might blather about the government and toss their teabags in the air with mighty force, but when it comes right down to it, they'd rather take the government we have and live peacefully than go into full live or die mode. Things have to get pretty bad at home before the masses kick in like that.

      OTOH, what I find frightening is the thought of that one lone (or eight or nineteen) crazies out there who listen to Glenn Beck et al in their heads and assume the government is crashing and take action, a la Tim McVeigh. That's where I think the right wing pundits need to take some control and scale back. I'm not holding my breath...

      Republicans: Fluffy. White. Happy. -- The Daily Show

      by romwriter on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:14:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  While I think they want to do it, (4+ / 0-)

    I doubt the rethugs will actually be able to launch a revolution. They have to resort to astroturfing to even get their teabagging on the news; how would they find enough people willing to die for their cause?

    Even the 25% that still like W aren't stupid enough to die because Faux News wants a revolution. While they may threaten it, in the end they are too cowardly and apathetic to follow through.

    We rely on your donations to bring you sigs like this. If you contribute today, we'll send you this free T.R. tote bag. (-10.00,-8.87)

    by Texas Revolutionary on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:03:48 AM PDT

  •  I can't speak for the rest of the (6+ / 0-)

    state, but I work in downtown Minneapolis -- it's a beautiful day so people are out there catching some rays. No horns, but someone is out there signing.

    I caught a glimpse of sun reflecting off of some costumes, but a better look revealed Red Hat Society ladies on an outing, not a window breaker among them!

    "Well-behaved women seldom make history." -- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

    by klompendanser on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:03:59 AM PDT

    •  "singing" not "signing" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      triciawyse, Clio2

      "Well-behaved women seldom make history." -- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

      by klompendanser on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:04:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  OT: hey, Minneapolite (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      klompendanser

      I saw this terrific video a couple of days ago: Down on Skid Row The documentary comprises interviews with "Johhny Rex, the king of Skid Row" in Minneapolis in the early 60s. It includes footage from many of the Super8 films he made in the neighbourhood, including the bulldozing of the entire area when the Gateway was rebuilt. I found it quite fascinating.

      The interface is a bit weird, btw. A video will seemingly end, then pick up again, but there don't seem to be any navigation controls.

      "They're telling us something we don't understand"
      General Charles de Gaulle, Mai '68

      by subtropolis on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:20:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  cool, thanks! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        subtropolis

        I remember seeing a few clips of this footage a few years ago when this book came out, but I didn't know TPT had a longer version up...now that I have a broadband connection I'll be sure to watch it tonight.

        "Well-behaved women seldom make history." -- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

        by klompendanser on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:31:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Personally, I think you are closer to the (6+ / 0-)

    truth than anyone wants to admit...

    Economic: -5.12 Social: -4.51
    "You can't fix stupid" - Ron White

    by triciawyse on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:05:13 AM PDT

  •  be at peace (6+ / 0-)

    I cant really judge whats going on at your place but I can tell you something about the real Kristallnacht.

    that was done when they already had their total control over state and people. When they already had coopted by force every existing public association or organization in society and subjected it under Nazi control. And still only in 38 when they had probably the highest actual agreement of ever in the general population, and still a shred of a veil of civility, only then did they dare to pull off the real Kristallnacht. From then on it was pretty clear that they wouldnt stop until every last member of the nation was personally implicated in murder.

    count yourself lucky that you arent anyhwere near to a real Kristallnacht. I´d think that for you, the danger of feudalism and semi-enslavement of the broad populace by a wealthy few moneyed monopolists is larger. I´d think that Kristallnacht is actually even now, a greater danger in my part of the world. (Do not ever trust our populace; it is a great mistake to underestimate the growing inclination to citizenry violence in Europe).

    I´m not a Democrat, by the way.

    by marsanges on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:05:13 AM PDT

    •  I'm trying to make it clear to everyone that I (4+ / 0-)

      don't see them as direct parallels; but I see small fires becoming bigger ones, and then when the fire company comes out to extinguish it, someone blames the fire company.

      I think based on the RW sites - particular with Rick Perry's insistance that Texas is a Sovereign state and that US military special forces in all branches are commanded not to follow unlawful orders, (and there is a list now of 8 of them that are going arond; I'll try to find that)

      ...that there are a lot of people right now who WANT the violence, first at small scale to bring the police out; that will give them a plausble claim that the police are heavy-handed and were never needed in the first place, which will fuel the riot and give them a reason for more troops in the street, and as the troops amass, the riot grows from city to county to state.

      That's my fear. I didn't know how to make that clear in the diary.

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:10:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why secession will fail (6+ / 0-)

    Joe Six-Pack in Texas has no trouble sticking to to the librul president in DC.

    That is, of course, until his beloved Dallas Cowboys/Stars, Houston Texans/Astros/Rockets, San Antonio Spurs/Mavericks, and Texas Rangers are all ceremoniously dumped out of the MLB/NFL/NBA/NHL within 2 weeks of the secession and his teams have NO ONE TO PLAY.

    The secession movement would collapse within 48 hours.

    People like to think they live in a bubble and can safely disconnect themselves from rest of the country, but reality speaks otherwise.

    •  I said I welcomed anyone to prove me wrong (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      snakelass, marsanges, Floande

      that's an interesting angle I hadn't thought of.

      keep it coming. I think I see the sky getting brigher (yet still overcast) outside....

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:22:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  ain't no way (5+ / 0-)

    America has put a powerful police state in place since the 70's. You can check out the reaction to the small protests at the conventions and compare that to 1968 to see what I mean. Uprisings are no longer tolerated and the lack of privacy makes them impossible to organize to fulfillment.

    The danger comes from lone nuts like McVeigh not from any organization powerful enough to disrupt the body politic.

    •  That was supposed to make us feel better? :) nt (5+ / 0-)
    •  1970s? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dfarrah

      America has been a police state since before the Declaration of Independence was written. Quashing the working class and slave rebellions of the 1700s, the Sedition acts of 1798 and 1918, the HUAC during the Red Scare, Kent State massacre, crackdowns on Civil Rights protests in the South during the 60s, all the way up to the police brutality we saw at the Rethug Convention in '08. The United States makes it very hard on dissenters.

      Add to that the fact that over the entire history of this country, minority groups have been kept down to placate the white poor, to keep the working class from becoming revolutionary, and you've got a fascist police state.

      We rely on your donations to bring you sigs like this. If you contribute today, we'll send you this free T.R. tote bag. (-10.00,-8.87)

      by Texas Revolutionary on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:25:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And yet... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Texas Revolutionary

        Daily Kos exists, Keith Olberman broadcasts without having his programming, or his channel pulled.

        Compared to most other real police states you'd find that this country has been remarkably kind towards its dissenters in comparison (with the exception of the Sedition act periods, and wartimes, but it should be noted that wartimes have never been good times for dissenters in any country).

        "Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center." - Kurt Vonnegut

        by Mister Gloom on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:28:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We get our speech, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dfarrah

          but speech and action are very different. For the most part, the government doesn't even have to punish those who speak out, because society does that for them. Remember how everyone who spoke out against the occupation of Iraq, before it was acceptable to do so, was ostracised?

          We rely on your donations to bring you sigs like this. If you contribute today, we'll send you this free T.R. tote bag. (-10.00,-8.87)

          by Texas Revolutionary on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:38:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Were there simultaneous claims that the Federal (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy

      government was both socialist in it's monetary policy and fascist in it's control of media and taxes and regulation in those times?

      Just curious.

      I dont' see it in my history books, but I heard it all day yesterday.

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 12:03:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Did you follow my argument past the first step? (0+ / 0-)

      Yes, a small protest will be easily put down with police action. And there need be only one small act of violence or police tactics, with tensons running this high, before something bigger comes of it.

      And as it grows bigger, the decision will have to be made to send in more police/military or not.

      Now at this point, either way it goes, Obama loses. If he keeps it low key and hope it settles down on it's own and let local authorities handle it, the RW will say he's asleep at the wheel and incapable of handling the country.

      If he sends in any amount of force, it will be declared as de facto evidence of the fascist police state fantasy the RW seems to think is all around us, and that will be the catalyst to lead to something uglier.

      So yes - lone nuts like McVeigh - unlike the country's atmosphere in 1995 - can be the one lone wolf who sets a match to the whole barn in 2009.

      That's my point. As loaded as the country is right now, how much do you really think it will take for things to get really stupid and out of control?

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 01:18:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think you are spot on with the intent but (4+ / 0-)

    I don't think reality is going to be even close. Over the top? Not exactly, but I'm thinking it's more like "not yet."

    I completely understand hoping to be wrong. This time I hope I'm not.

    "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott

    by MsWings on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:07:42 AM PDT

    •  What do we do when "yet" is here? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Michellebird, Floande

      Just asking why it's unreasonable to brace ourselves now and not panic when panic will be the most obvious instinct if it ever unfolds.

      Just trying to start a conversation, that's all.  

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:21:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't know. I'm not even sure if I think (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        snafubar, marsanges

        yet is inevitible. I hope it's not, obviously, but like you I think it might be. Then again I think about the people on the other side and I really doubt they have the motivation and the stamina to really sustain a protest to the point that panic would be a reasonable response. I mean, there will be racing season soon and baseball season and then football season and ... well, the attention span of the average American and all that.

        I don't know, snafubar, I really don't know. I do know my panic potential sensor is on high alert lately and I don't like it.

        "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott

        by MsWings on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:26:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  don´t panic (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          snafubar

          brace yourself ...
          remember that was what that air captain said in that plane? He didnt say go panic, he said brace. and everyone came through. Now besides wanting to soothe you, and though I know really not how it is really over there, I´d say be at peace.

          the more you´re alone, the more vulnerable you are. To going astray on the inside as well as to violent pressure on the outside. The more you grow relations with folks around you (as this diaries author does) the more safe you are.

          I really cant judge your countries´wingnuttery. But here at home, I feel threatened by "the ordinary people" who I´d not put beyond them to string up a moroccan-descent rascal kid at a lamp post; not in any organized fashion but just out of the goodness of their heart (decent citizens as they are, against petty criminals).

          I´m not a Democrat, by the way.

          by marsanges on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:43:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Motivation and stamina are not required (0+ / 0-)

          to start a panic amongst nervous people.

          That's all I'm saying.

          All they need to do is start a panic and then Obama is damned either way:

          If he doesn't send in the police/troops, he's incompetent and not in control

          If any measure of law enforcement or anything else shows up at all, the RW lunatics will declare that to be the rallying cry that martial law is only a heartbeat away and then we can all forget putting the brakes on anything.

          George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

          by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 12:02:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Last time I checked... (0+ / 0-)

    ...Kristallnacht was an assault of the majority against the minority.  We're the majority.

    Al que no le guste el caldo, le dan dos tazas.

    by Rich in PA on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:14:01 AM PDT

  •  We've got absolutely no worries. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jabney, 21st Century Man

    First of all, Kristellnacht was built over several decades, in which an ultra-right wing dictatorship played on a national currency getting turned into wallpaper to punch up a level of anger and a sense of betrayal by communist Jews that had run the Post-WWI government in Germany. Fascists--an ultra-right ideology, had a massive level of hatred for communists--an ultra-left ideology,  and we are not having and will never have the kind of clash of demented ideologies that led up to Kristellnacht.  Germany was a nation that was built out of an old Prussian military tradition. Germans were indoctrinated from an early age to trust the government, to do what superiors told them to do, and to practice a version of nihilism that made the nation extremely susceptible to group-think and cult of personality. America, on the other hand, is built primarily of pragmatists who can't even separate fascism and socialism in any meaningful way, and hence can't be pushed into one group or the other. We just aren't collectively a society that is going to band together to go beat the hell out of an ethnic minority. Hell, South Carolina has arguably the worse racial history of any state in the nation, and yet I can walk into my local small-town diner at lunch-time and find whites and blacks in baseball caps sitting around a collective table passing a basket of corn-bread around. There are racist lunatics out there, but even here, there just isn't any real sense of outrage over minorities taking jobs. White people here aren't worried about their jobs being taken by their black neighbors. Whites and Blacks collectively already know where the textile industry went. So, if they hate any particular race, it's mostly the Chinese, which is all right, because none of them can get to China in their pick-up trucks, so China is safe. Most of them own boats for weekend fishing, but you can't put more than a case of beer in there with three friends, and once they're out of beer, they'd have to detour to Hawaii for a beer and cigarette run.

    •  Steve - I'm not in the same country with you (0+ / 0-)

      You make some grossly oversimplistic declarations that might be what you see from your eyeballs, but they are not reasonable or accurate statements about the whole country.

      "if they hate any particular race, its' mostly the Chinese..."

      That was a joke, right?

      What rock are you living under that you haven't noticed that there are just a few people with their undies in a bunch over latinos - and it is about the jobs -

      I really don't know how you could live in this country and own a computer - and be a member of this site - and have missed over all of that.

      Who's your mother, Pollyanna?

      I'm really floored by just about everything you said in that post. And you live in South Carlina?

      Well, lets see I got mugged twice while I lived in North Carolina - once in school and once as an adult, it just so happened that I was white and they were black. Surely a coincidence. They obviously didn't notice my color and of course I didn't pay attention to theirs, right? And yet somehow there it was.

      when I was 19, and living in NC, I barely made it through a KKK rally in South Mountain NC while I was camping in the mountains, I guess that was just a cookout with lots of confederate flags they held up for protection from the sun?

      I can't agree with much of anything in your comment; and race was not even a point in my diary. I tried to make the point that there are people who want large scale revolt, so they're going to start small ones, so that when any size police or military response is sent out, no matter how politely or reasonably it goes, the hype will be a call for more protests as it will be (falsely) declared proof that the Obama government is using gestappo tactics.

      Now maybe your comment was a joke, or snark, but Gene Kelley hasn't been seen "Singin in the Rain" in the US in long time.  

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 01:13:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Kristallnacht was tacitly supported by the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    snakelass

    German govt.  That is not the case with this teabagging etc.

    •  Can I get anybody to read something longer than (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marsanges, Mother Shipper

      twelve seconds and actually check out o afew of the comments first?

      I've covered this.

      I got it - I'll go back to bed, you can all call me when the sun comes up, the economy is healed, Iraq is over, and the Democrats and Republicans in this country all have little flowers painted on their cheeks while they play croquet on the White House lawn with Obama's new dog.

      Can I ask you this?

      1. Did you watch the Olbermann piece to see the Foxaganda from yesterday?
      1. Did I say that this was the US government sponsoring this, or did I say that there was a different motivator, and any violence was enough violence to get just enough conflict in the streets for it to boil over (like that NEVER happens in this country, right?) and as the government is required to respond to the violence EVEN IN A MEASURED AND APPROPRIATE response, the RW lunatics will declare (falsely) it's evidence of martial law and then the violence will escalate.

      If all you're going to do is cite historical fact to me and declare that my diary is not a precise, direct parallel with exact similarities, you're right.

      I just wanted to inspire some critical thinking

      Silly me.

      The country is fine, folks. Snafubar needs more meds. Go back to sleep and it will all be sunny and pleasant from now on. Nothing to see here.

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:56:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Kristalnacht? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    unclejohn

    I remember the Night of Broken Glass.  It was government sanctioned.

    This ain't even close.  This is more like the Night of Broken Hearts.  Right wingnut hearts.  Their popular front is just a front.  Not very popular.

    •  Government sanctioned, Fox sanctioned (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      snakelass, marsanges

      I drew the parallels in the diary.

      I think that's clear.

      It was never meant to be a direct correlation.

      I wish people would read diaris and not skim them, including the comments, then more will see that it was not meant to be a direct parallel, and this has been brought up a dozen times already in the comments and I've addressed them as fast as I can.

      The short attention span theater in this place is almost as depressing as the state of decorum in the country in general.

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:49:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  heh, escuses (0+ / 0-)

        I know you didnt mean it like a real comparison

        But you know what? If I wouldnt skim a diary but real think about it and come back the next day with a well thought out comment or answer, who´s hanging around still here to read it? Dont be too harsh on us. I´d agree these "teabagging" folks of yours are rather comical (I thank them because I hadn´t known before about that words popular meaning).

        on the other hand I am fearful of what "normal people" can do and in that sense I absolutely do understand your worries. I dont hold that word Kristallnacht against you. It only invites attack, but thats life.

        I´m not a Democrat, by the way.

        by marsanges on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:58:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This could be nothing (4+ / 0-)

    or it could be the English Civil War: factions in a country with TOTALLY incompatible world-views.  Too early to tell.

  •  What about Radio Rawanda? (4+ / 0-)

    From Wikipedia:  

    According to recent commentators the news media played a crucial role in the genocide: local print and radio media fuelled the killings, while the international media either ignored or seriously misconstrued events on the ground. The print media in Rwanda is believed to have started hate speech against Tutsis which was later continued by radio stations

    Don't know if the media in Rawanda was government controlled but it is an example of the power of media to incite.  We are probably not at that stage yet but it is something to discuss and be mindful of.

  •  Silly hyperbole (0+ / 0-)

    This is the kind of rhetoric that inspired Kristallnacht.

    A bunch of wingnuts bitching about taxes will not spark a violent genocidal rampage.  

    Tea?  Try the decaf.

    Having credibility when making an argument is the straightest path to persuasion.

    by SpamNunn on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:38:26 AM PDT

    •  You like calling me silly (0+ / 0-)

      I hope you're right.

      I hope you're right.

      I hope you're right.

      Now, as for your personal problem with me, why don't you just come over for dinner and we can talk about this like gentleman.

      you can fake it.

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 11:45:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Tea parties are representative of the downside of (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    snafubar

    "populism".  It is dangerous to stoke the anger of the American people (both liberals and conservatives are doing it), and it will have unintended consequences.

    "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

    by lordcopper on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 12:03:44 PM PDT

  •  Uh, no. These folks are UFO abductee crowd. (0+ / 0-)

    You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

    by Cartoon Peril on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 12:07:08 PM PDT

  •  remember the crowds at Sarah Palin rallies (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, snafubar

    There is something real in this country that is being invoked with this stuff.

    What will come of it, I don't know.

    But it's not like those who attended the Palin rallies or would have if they could have ... just disappeared because President Obama got elected by such a high proportion of the electoral college.

    There is backlash coming from real dynamics.

    I understand you aren't talking about direct parallels, and I feel that your use of the Kristallnacht reference is useful because it gets at something about the energy.

    This whole "we won, they are irrelevant" thing is really short-sighted in my opinion.

    One of the paths from here is most certainly some sort of violent backlash. As someone who would be directly targeted in such a backlash for being a Jew and being a lesbian, I don't take this shit lightly.

    Saying "oh, it will never happen" is not really an option I have in my own perception.

    •  I just has a long harangue about discrimination (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Michellebird

      recently about gay marriage; how we once thought it was ok to keep blacks as slaves, but we grew out of it; we once thought it was ok for women not to vote or be able to hold property, we got over it, we still treated the blacks worse than dogs until the 60's and we're getting better, but we're still not over it...

      my point to that person was that there always has to be a 'bogey' - the "Them" in "they will take your money, rape your daughters, burn your house and kill you" kind of bullshit that always turns to violence.

      And this person - who I still think is a fairly noble individual said something that freaked me out -

      "Well, you can easily tell jews by their dress, their habits, and even their location. They deliberately go out of their way to stand out and be identified as Jews"

      That just chilled my blood and curdled my brain.

      The fact that in this day we still have people who think they can know everything about someone just by simple appearances (or any other criteria or characteristic they make up and declare for themselves is valid) is really shocking.

      Greatest country in the world, right?

      If this is the greatest, no wonder so many think the planet is fucked.

      On the other hand, Michellebird, I think in this particular revolution, the blindness in the rage is going to be directed at institutions, not individuals. What I'm saying is that being a jew and/or a lesbian by itself won't make you stand out in a crowd; but by nature of your habits, you might be in the wrong place at the wrong time if something symbolic is the target.

      Thanks for your comment; I was getting pretty depressed and bewildered with the amount of "so what?" comments; as if the country is all sunlight and rainbows.

      Be careful, be good, and be at peace.

      If I find out how to do that, I'll let you know...

      :)

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 15, 2009 at 12:57:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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